Intro: [00:00:00] I am Christina Koki, your post of the Effortless Closing Podcast. Born and raised in Silicon Valley. Now bringing the wisdom, wit, and well-oiled business strategies from my new hometown just outside of Nashville, where the pace is slower, but the revenue still runs high. With over two decades building businesses, some wildly successful others, gloriously messy.
Every step has been fueled by a love of real strategy and real results. This isn't about side gigs, and it's definitely not about hustle culture. This is about optimization and building revenue, generating machines designed to make your life and your business feel effortless. After $92 million in sales of the last eight years while raising four little ones and building it all.
Wholepreneur. I've created systems that scale and a business that supports my life, not steals from it. From summers in Europe to road trips across the United States, being present with my family is the [00:01:00] greatest win. And everything I've learned to make that possible is now inside the effortless closing method.
The framework behind this podcast, and here's the best part, you can build the same kind of business, the kind that funds your lifestyle, honors your values, and. Feels like you. This show is for the woman who's already doing well, but is ready to simplify the work, amplify her income, and finally build a business that flows with her life.
Every episode brings sharp strategy, honest insights, and real world tools to help you grow your business and enjoy your life in the process. We don't just grow your business, we optimize it to feel effortless. This is the Effortless Closing podcast.
Christina Kokologiannakis: Let's just get right into it.
So welcome Camil. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today. We are just gonna get right into it and have some really cool conversations. I just wanna start by asking, when you did your growth and you got to where you are, what would you say was one of the biggest struggles in [00:02:00] building your copywriting business and everything that you do now?
Camille Pardo: The biggest struggle, oh my goodness. Everything. And every time you get to a new level, it's a new struggle, a new upper limit. In the beginning I felt invisible. For a really long time. And then there comes this cool point, Christina, you know this point when all of a sudden you are really busy and you're fielding tons of requests and tons of questions, and you can't keep up with your dms, and you feel like you're drowning a little bit and then you feel guilty for not being grateful because you're not invisible.
It's just, you know what I mean?
Christina Kokologiannakis: It's, it's the, it's the real like journey of it, right? Because it, it is. And then the funny thing is like I tell people when they get to the point, I'm like, that's when you raise your prices, that's when you have to increase pricing because you have an inflow of people and that's such a good thing, but it makes everything crazy, right?
Yes. So, I mean, a
Camille Pardo: good problem to have, but also, I truly believe that entrepreneurship is a [00:03:00] really. Spiritual journey and you get to know yourself and you're gonna be pushed to the limits. And there's nobody else to blame because there is no, you don't have a boss that you can be like, he's holding me back.
Right? He's reading everything. It's you and you have to look at yourself in the mirror and be like, I'm sabotaging me. I'm not showing up at my best. I gotta fix this, this, this, and this. So it's this incredible spiritual journey of. Putting yourself out there and having this faith and belief and doing it and messing it up and doing it again and fixing it and tweaking it.
Yeah. And so it never, I don't know, I've never been in this spot where it feels easy and comfortable and chill. Yeah. It's always exhilarating and takes the most and the good times are so good that it's worth it, but it's never, I don't know. I've never just been like. Show up for my business. It just takes, it takes all of you.
It does. And that makes it sound like you don't wanna do it, but you [00:04:00] do. But
Christina Kokologiannakis: you do. And it's, so, we just had the live of the House of Cortes live and we talked about this and it's like, if you're in alignment with what you, what you're doing, and you really love what you're doing. Yes. Like there's crazy days.
Yes, things can get bonkers, but you show up because you're like, it's crazy. But I love it. Like my husband. Yes. Like my, he let, we were walking up the stairs this, this morning. So I'm in an apartment right now on the third floor with no elevator, just stairs. It's not, it's not fun. When we do the large Costco runs and I'm like, okay, seven bags, everybody carry 'em up at once.
But anyways, we were talking about this and he is like. Would you ever create like a cooking show? And I'm like, yeah, it'd be called the Worst Mom cook, or the Worst Home Cooks by a Mom. I don't know. 'cause I, I'm horrible at cooking, like, horrible at cooking. Like, you can have mac and cheese and hotdogs.
I'll make you that. It'll be really yummy, I promise. But like, you know, we're talking about that. I'm like, I could do it. Like, I'd be really good at it. I knew the systems to make it happen. I could put it out there. But I won't love it. Like [00:05:00] it won't be my jam where I'm like, this is what I love. This is what I'm doing.
Like I love talking about business. I know you love talking about copywriting. Like, gosh, it's like we enjoy it so much that. Even when crap happens, we still show up and we're like, it's okay. We're gonna keep going. And it's like, it's like I used the analogy earlier of being on a track in a race, you're, you're racing to the next person.
Let's say it's a relay race and you're ready to hand off the baton and you're ready to go and you stumble. You don't just stumble, you roll and you get up and you keep going. Right? And you see the people who do that. And that's what, that's what I feel like entrepreneurship is, right? When you're building a business, it's stumbling.
Going like, you just have to keep doing it. So I love that. Now you're in copywriting. Tell us. Yes. Tell so far, just in case someone's not really clear on what a copywriter does, tell us a little bit about it.
Camille Pardo: Okay, so I write words that sell. You know, there's lots of different types of writers. Some people write to entertain, right.
The [00:06:00] movies that we love to watch, the scripts, the books that we love to read. Okay. Some writing is just for entertainment. Some writing is just for information. Things like textbooks and a lot of the blogs that you read write are just informational, but I have this weird twist and I write words that sell.
So I'm not trying to entertain you or to teach you something. I'm trying to persuade, and so that's why it's a whole different mind game and the buyer's psychology and the business, because I want you to read that. Sales page and be like, this is for me. I'm in a hundred percent. And I know everybody listening.
You have that moment where you've read something before and it absolutely punched you in the heart, and you were hooked and you were hand over your credit card number. I have seen ads, you know, like they just, you're like, take my money. Mm-hmm. Because they speak exactly to what you need and what you want.
And that is what I love to do. And so [00:07:00] it's. Part marketing, part business, and then writing. So I get all the words, all the fun of words, but I'm not just here to entertain, I'm here to persuade. And that's where, that's how we met.
Christina Kokologiannakis: Yes. Yes. She is my copywriter, so I use her. And so I encourage you to use her too.
And that's the cool thing. And it's funny because. One word, just one word can make a difference. So like you can say private, you can say exclusive, like each word tells a story and people don't understand. So like someone was saying something and I was like, well say just in nine years, not just in nine years.
And they were like, well, why? And I was like. Well in your brain when you hear in nine years, it's kind of like, oh, okay, it's nine years. But if you put just right in front of it, it feels like you did something amazing in a really short time. Instead of making it be like, oh, nine years, well that's nine years.
Like just nine years. Wow, you didn't just nine years. Okay, that's crazy. People must do it longer, and so I love how words. [00:08:00] Can really paint a story. And I feel like a lot of entrepreneurs, when they're building, and we're gonna get, we're gonna talk about ai, so prepare yourself. We're gonna have that chat.
But like a lot of entrepreneurs are coming into this and they're speaking about them. We don't wanna do that. Right? Let's talk about how it's so important in our copy to make sure we're speaking to a person, one person who's reading it. Not everybody, let's talk about that.
Camille Pardo: Hey, that is, I think, the biggest mistake I see with entrepreneurs.
And every time I teach a guest expert session, we go back to the very, very beginning because especially when you're just starting, you want to be legit. You want people to take you seriously. You want them to know that you know what you're doing, that you're legit. So you sit down to write about your offer and you say, hi, I'm so and so, and I do this, and I do this, and I'm an expert in this.
And then before you know it. You have an entire website and every single sentence starts with the word I. [00:09:00] Yes, I see this. I see this all the time, Christina. And when I pointed out, people are like completely shocked the, I had one last week and she was like, I do that in her email. Every single sentence in her sales email.
Started with the word I and you can't talk about yourself. You have to talk to your audience because it's not about you the second you started a business. Yeah. It's not about you anymore. It's about them and it's about how you serve them. It's about their pain, what they're going through, their struggles, what keeps them up at night, and then it's you.
How you can help them. Does that make sense? So it's how you serve them. Yeah. And so that is, I think the biggest mistake that we see is we start every single sentence with I and you say where you went to school and what your degrees in and why you are the best bookkeeper in the world, but you don't ever talk to your customer.
And I think that is probably this, the quickest fix that you can do right now. So maybe everyone listening, maybe you need to [00:10:00] pull up the last email that you sent or your last blog post, or maybe your website. The very, very first thing that people see, maybe your Instagram bio. And if every single sentence starts with the word I, I want you to swap those out.
And say, you talk to your person. This feels like bad dating advice, Christina, when you like, don't go on a date and talk about
Christina Kokologiannakis: yourself the whole time.
Camille Pardo: Okay?
Christina Kokologiannakis: Yes, yes. It, it, it is. They don't, you don't realize it. And I remember when I kind of first started, I have so many years of experience in entrepreneurship, but when I got into the online space, I did that because I had imposter syndrome.
So I felt like. Nobody's gonna trust me. No one's gonna believe me. I've, well now I've sold almost a hundred million dollars in sales, but it's like no one's gonna listen to anything I do. And so I kept saying, I am this, I am that. And I remember I had this one coach and she was going through a lot of my stuff and she stopped and she goes.
The reason your sales are not kicking off like you thought they would because you've put yourself on a [00:11:00] pedestal. You've made yourself feel so grand and so big that you're almost untouchable, unreachable, and everyone's like, oh, she's so amazing. Look at her. But what about us? I could
Camille Pardo: never do that.
Christina Kokologiannakis: Yes,
Camille Pardo: that's, and you don't want your people reading.
Anything that you write and feeling that you're unattainable or that you're so far out there, like you said, on a pedestal or, and you don't want them to think, I could never do that. That would never work for me. I, it doesn't work like that. No. We have to get them to believe in themselves and to also believe in you, and you can't do that if you're just talking about yourself.
That is the easiest, quickest copy switch right there is to swap from. All of the, and you know what, if you go to my Instagram, I have a ton of posts about this because I talk about it all day long, and I have a whole bunch of really good examples for you. So stalk me a little bit, if you need some examples of what that looks like, to take a sentence from I I and swap it to your customer's feelings.
But still make yourself look good. I'm not saying that [00:12:00] you are gonna look like trash or like you don't know what you're doing, okay? There's absolutely a way you can swap every single sentence. Start it with the word you, but connect with them first, and then, then that expertise and how you can help them, and how you can solve their pain and their struggles and all the things that they're going through.
It just connects.
Christina Kokologiannakis: Okay? So how do you connect with them? That's gonna be what everyone's asking.
Camille Pardo: How do you connect? Okay. All right, Christina, this is the other, the other thing I see a lot in copy and when people go to write copy, I feel like too often we write it like an essay and not a conversation. Yeah.
That is the, if you sit down and you're like, and I'm that's an essay that's not working. But if you're having a conversation with someone, you speak differently. And that is your breakthrough copy. So let me, let me give you a little tip. And this is what I tell people from the get go, [00:13:00] grab your phone and hit on your voice.
Voice to text, and then ask, answer the question, what are you trying to convey? And then just say it. Say it out loud. If you wanna pretend that you're sitting across from your friend and you're out for coffee and you're going like this, and you're like, Hey, tell me everything that happened. Talk like that.
Say exactly what you're trying to convey, like you would say it out loud and then stop. And that text that you've got right there, that is your breakthrough copy. Just like you would say it to a person and conversational copy is what's converting so well right now. Yes. Obviously, and this is something that humans are better at than ai and you mentioned that they're gonna go there, but it makes you sound so human.
It makes you warm. Mm-hmm. And it makes them instantly connect with you because they feel like they're there and that you're talking to them, that this is a conversation. So, and I know this is like. Going against [00:14:00] everything that you learned in school. And so maybe you need to pretend like all of those college essays never happened because we're so used to writing with this whole professional voice and we have to have a thesis statement and three things that back it up, and our sentences have to be long and correct.
Mm-hmm. And have all this perfect structure. And that's how we were graded. And those of us who loved English class, this is, you know, like this is what we rocked. Right. But it's not working in. Persuasive copywriting. And if you wanna sell something, you've gotta let all of that go. And so you can have short sentences and you can have lots of pauses and dot, dot, dot, and you can have drama and you can all the slang and all the silliness and all of your personality.
You can be completely unhinged or controversial. Or hilarious. All of those things that are pieces of you, I want in your conversational copy. And that's what's gonna convert because it feels warm and it feels human, and it feels like, it [00:15:00] feels like a person. It feels like the real you, which is, you know what they're getting.
It's what,
Christina Kokologiannakis: it's what they, it's what you're selling. Right? And a lot of people have to understand that the real you that comes out is what people want. And I have a hard time with this, so I'm very authentic. It's really me. But I grew up as in an in a home where. My father would say, he would say, act your o, act your age.
Which is funny 'cause I would be like eight, but he really wanted me to act like 20. But like he would say that all the time. But like he would tell me, you don't act like that. You don't do that. You don't be like this. And then when I started getting in the corporate world, you know, a lot of it was. Oh, you must wear your suit.
You must, you know, be professional. You must not speak ill of people you must not like. And so all these things got ingrained in me. And so I almost have a filter on me where I'm really professional and off camera. I made a joke with somebody and it was a really, really funny, like the comment she made and the comment I made was so bad.
It was so hilarious. We laughed like 30 minutes. [00:16:00] And she was like, why are you not like this on camera? And I'm like, 'cause I don't feel like it's, it's appropriate. Like I don't feel like it's right. But I feel like the people who are succeeding are the people off in their authentic voice. And when you read copy, when you read messaging.
Emails we're, we are, we're talking about sales page, but this can be emails, this can be landing pages, this can be wait lists, it could be whatever you're using. So it doesn't have to be just a sales page, but when that feeling comes out and it feels so good and you're reading it and it has that, it's funny to say words have energy, but they do.
We do. You do. When you read it and you feel it, it's a whole vibe. It's a whole vibe and you feel it. It kind of gives you goosebumps and it makes you feel really good. And it's, I'll be honest, 'cause we're gonna go to AI now. I will read stuff and I'm like, I don't wanna read it. Like it's so long. And I'm like scrolling and I'm just like, it's so much content.
I'm like, but what do you do? Like, I don't even know what you do yet. And there was this one really big name [00:17:00] and my friend was like, do you know this person? I'm like, I know the name. I'm like, let me look her up. And we're talking. And I literally was like, okay, I'm on her page. I still don't know what she does.
And she goes, right. And I'm like, yeah, yes. I can't even figure out what she does. And then I'll read something else where I'm like, there was literally, okay, so I'm gonna, I'll, I'll name names, but it's hook point. And I saw something, something came to me, someone sent something to me that I investigated a little bit more, and then I read their copy and I was like, dang.
I was like. I think I need to have a call with them. Like I don't do that. And it was so good that instantly I was like, okay, I want a call to figure out more. That's what you want your copy to be? Yeah. That's where you're like, the feeling is there, and I know that's what you do.
Camille Pardo: Well, it's this I know.
Oh, when you said filter, I'm like, yes, because I think there is this, uh, entrepreneur ladies, you know, you know this feeling, that fear of being seen because we're not, we're not sure if people are gonna like us. Yeah. The actual us. And so we do a little bit of pretending and we have a little bit of a [00:18:00] filter.
But the thing is, when you're, you. You attract your people and just as important, you repel the people that are not for you. And I know for some people I'm a little bit too loud or a little too bold or a little too out there in my copy. And so if that's not your vibe, I'm not your girl. Yeah. Okay. And so you don't have to get on my email list and adore everything I say because you're not my person, but the people that you gather, and I know Christina, that you've got raving fans that literally love being in your universe because it's you, but there are probably people too that you are just.
You just don't speak to them. Your hearts just don't connect, and that's okay. You wanna repel those people when they read your copy too. So it's an attraction and a repel thing that that matters so much. And I also wanna mention something when I start working with a brand new client. The question, just like you were saying that word, the [00:19:00] words have energy.
One of the questions that I always ask before I start writing a single word is, how do you want people to feel when they read your copy? And that. Is such an important question because there's so many different feelings. And if I'm gonna write to that word with that energy, I even put it, I mean, I've got sticky notes right here with my clients, different words, and I put 'em up depending on who I'm writing for.
And maybe that's something that you guys need to try at home. Write down the word, what do you want people to feel? And maybe it's hopeful. Maybe you want them to read your copy and just know that I have hope. Maybe you want people to feel capable when they read your stuff or relief. Maybe it's relief or maybe it's joy, or maybe it's courage.
Okay? Like whatever that word is that you want people to feel, that's the energy that you write from from, and it comes across and it will bring, they'll bring your people to you and then they'll be clicking bye because they wanna be in your universe.
Christina Kokologiannakis: No, and I love that. And going back to what you were saying about repelling people and pulling the [00:20:00] right people in, we, I talk about this all the time with conversions, right?
It's like, I'd rather have a hundred people and convert them at 90% and get 90 people than you know, Beth, my friend was just saying that she had a friend who did a launch. She got 800 people on the list and only 40 people showed up. I mean, it's like why do all that effort, all that energy for such, now you have now, if your conversion rates are only 5%, you're only gonna convert 5% of the 40, not the 80.
Right? And so for me, I rather get the right people in so I get higher conversions on the first time than to. Fu with a whole bunch of people who aren't interested. So like email's a big one, right? Mm-hmm. You can get a ton of people on your email list. I know people who have huge emails, email list, but their open rates are tiny, like tiny, tiny, because
Camille Pardo: nobody likes them.
Nobody's reading the
Christina Kokologiannakis: wrong people. Yes, yes. It's like you can have these freebies to get people in. You can have these load tickets to get people in. You can have all this. [00:21:00] If your words messaging, copy, whatever you wanna call it, is not lined up with it and you're attracting the wrong people, then you're wasting so much time.
And I did that for a long time. I had to step back. I had a lot, I mean, they were great people. I enjoyed them, I loved them. But I realized like in my heart. I didn't like what I was doing. It wasn't like what I wanted, right? And so I said, okay, well, I have these great people, but they're not really doing what I want them to do.
I want entrepreneurs who have built the business, who are ready for the next level, because that's what I'm all about. Who want efficiencies, who want to build an empire, who want something amazing? That's what I want. But it took me time to kind of realize. What that is. Yes. But it's all about getting the right people in.
It's all about the right copy. It's all about making sure that. Everything that's going on fits the world. So let's talk about AI a little bit. Okay. So we talk about AI can't give feelings. Someone's gonna post a comment and say, yes, it can. You just tell it to be human. [00:22:00] But everyone's afraid of ai. And I told my husband, I'm like, I gotta get you on my podcast.
And he's like, why would you want me? And I'm like, because he's so big on ai. He writes articles about it, all sorts of stuff with ai. AI is not something to be afraid of. But a friend and a tool. What's your take on ai?
Camille Pardo: Honestly about, I don't know, 60, 70% of my business right now is fixing AI copy. And and a lot of times it's, uh, messaging, it's not the actual words or the way chat, GBT spit it out for you.
It's like your friend who sounds like she's attracting the wrong people. Mm-hmm. Because her messaging wasn't dialed in first before she had copy. You know, chat, GBT write that sales page for her. Yeah. And so a lot of what I do is fixing the stuff that just isn't landing. And I think yes, a lot of it is that messaging and the positioning beforehand that you didn't, maybe you didn't prompt it well [00:23:00] enough.
No, it's not something to be afraid of. It can be your BFF and your friend and it can totally help you out. But you are the real star and. It's you that people love and want to be around, and it's your message, it's you that matters more than everything else. And so I don't want you to get lost in that.
Having a ton of prompts and having it write everything for you and lose your voice.
Christina Kokologiannakis: Yeah, I love that. And AI is great. It's like, it's a great starting point. I was talking in another podcast and I said, with ai, I said, okay. You can start with it. You can use it to get your messaging kind of dialed in.
You can have conversations. You can say, where am I going? What do I want with this? But I don't listen to ai, so my husband's like, you love him more than I do. And I'm like, yes, my AI is a man, but no, I don't, because he's like, you talk to it more than me. And I'm like, but I'm not really talking to it, if that makes sense.
I am talking, it spits back a thought working stuff [00:24:00] through. Yes, yes. And then I articulate what it says, and then I'm like, well, I don't like that. And then basically it's telling me what I said. Then I go back and forth, back and forth. And so what it's really just doing is I'm having a conversation with myself in a way so that I'm feeling like, okay, this is what I wanna do.
Ooh, I like this. Ooh, this is where I wanna go with this. Okay. Like, this feels good. And then I take that and I test it in the world. Yeah, because just because AI tells me to do something doesn't mean it works. So like I really wanna call myself a strategic advisor for women who want to jump income levels, right?
And I kind of like that, but I don't know if it's gonna land really well. I talk to some of my friends and they're like, it's a little flat. You're more of a maverick. It should be more bold. It should be more. Out there and in your face. And I'm like, okay. Like, but chat. And I kind of came with that. So it's good to get that feedback and say, I love the idea that I help women go from one income level to the next effortlessly.
That's kind of my thing. So it's like, okay, how can I say that in a [00:25:00] way where it's like easy, right? And it gets to it. So AI is kind of like the starting point. And then it's like, and then you come in and this is what I tell people, get a really good copywriter who comes in and makes it sparkle. So when you're changing the ai, you're kind of working on it.
So you said it's more of the messaging versus more of the words, or are you also in there with the words too and tweaking it?
Camille Pardo: Both.
Christina Kokologiannakis: Both?
Camille Pardo: Definitely both. I love what you just said about testing it and there's something to be said for the entrepreneurs who just get something done and I think chat GPT is really good at.
Just helping us get it done and get it out there, and you can always fix it later. And so if your entire sales page is from chat, GPT, it's okay. We can still be friends. I'm not judging you because it's done and you put yourself out there and you hit publish and I'm so proud of you. Like sometimes you just, you just gotta get it up and stop being a perfectionist.
So I'm gonna [00:26:00] cheer you on. That's okay. But. I love what you said, testing it, because sometimes you might notice you're attracting the wrong people. Or people aren't sticking around or people are bored or, you know what I mean? Like there's gonna be spots or people are misunderstanding what you do. You are, I was just on a call with someone who keeps going on sales calls with people and none of them are ready for her.
Okay. And she couldn't figure out why I keep getting all these beginners and I'm ready for people at this level, and I'm just so sick of, you know, wasting all this time on sales calls. And I'm like, well, let's look at your copy. And nowhere in her copy does she say anything that points to the level that you're at, or if this is for you and if this is not for you, it sounds like she's your first stop along the way, but she wants to be three or four steps in.
And but she doesn't say that anywhere. And so we need to, she's gonna keep wasting all that time on her sales calls until we can [00:27:00] put in the copy. Let let that come across and let it be clear that like, you are not ready for me. If you are not here, if you don't already have a business and you're not already making money and you haven't launched your course yet.
Don't book a call with me like so that, you know what I mean? Just make that really, really clear because it does, it wastes your time and so much time in customer service and refunds, and none of us wanna spend time doing that
Christina Kokologiannakis: or pay, oh, I just had this, which I won't do payment plans anymore, but I've had a handful of people, I literally dispute my charge on their credit card and they say, oh, but I got the course, I'm done.
Why are you still charging me? I'm like, it's called a payment plan. And they're like, no, I'm done with it. I'm done. Why am I still being charged? And I am like. Really like, come on. And then I had another person who's just like, oh, I'm a I and I, I feel for single moms, I really do. But when you commit to pay there, there can't be the these excuses.
It's, I'm a single mom, then I've been sick, then I was this, then I was that, and I can't, you know, I don't, I can't pay. And I'm like. But you [00:28:00] agreed in the beginning. And the funny thing is, this is where we talk about people in the right, you know, the right, we attract the right people. She probably wasn't
Camille Pardo: your person.
She wasn't my person. She wasn't meant to you.
Christina Kokologiannakis: No. And the the funny thing is it's only $130 a month. So I'm like, if you can't afford $130 a month, there's other problems going on. Right? And a lot of people could afford it, but what they do instead is they'll say. I don't see the value anymore in that, so I don't wanna pay it, but I'm gonna put my money, like people spend $130 a month at Starbucks, so I'm like, I know they have the money, but, but let's talk about.
Talking to many people versus one person or one type of person. Because I know in copy and messaging and, and all of it, this is the conversation I have a lot of my clients, I wanna talk to everybody. If I'm too niched down, I am not gonna be talking to everybody and it's like, oh my God, stop. Stop. So talk.
Talk to us about that. We're like,
Camille Pardo: we're afraid that we're gonna leave somebody behind. Yes. That's meant for us and we try to be for [00:29:00] everyone. And if that's not like the people pleaser woman in all of us, where we just wanna be for everyone and be pleasant for everyone, but that's not. Right. That's not it.
No. And the that is not it. The funny
Christina Kokologiannakis: thing is we want to leave people behind. We want them to stay. It's like, and, and here's where I think the mindset comes from. It's a dollar. It's like, oh, I might leave that dollar behind. I might leave that money there. What if that's a sale? And I keep going back to if you hope that that's a sale.
Then you have other problems because you should be looking. I should be able to be in a crowd and say, that's my person, that's my person, that's my person, that's my person. And I'm gonna go talk to the four or five people because they're gonna convert. I'm gonna get a sale. I know it's all good, but online you can't pick them out like that.
But you can't with your copy and your messaging, when that style in.
Camille Pardo: You can't serve everyone. Yeah, you can't. And if you try, you will just run yourself ragged. So Christina, I used to be a teacher [00:30:00] and oh, I learned this really quick. So for the last, what, you know, six years before I started writing copy, I taught at the university.
And so I would leave my babies and drive up and I could be. Absolutely fascinating, clever, hilarious, perfect. Deliver everything. The most amazing lesson. And there were always students who didn't like me. And who didn't like my class. And you, if you Google my name, you can probably read some of my old teacher reviews.
But some students, they would just tell me, your class changed my life. Yes. And that was so amazing. And the way you spoke to me about this, I will never forget. And this was incredible. And they'll have these awesome wins during the semester and I'm so proud of them. But in the exact same class, in the exact same room I have a student.
Who left me a review and just said they couldn't handle my class 'cause my voice was so annoying. And I was like, cool, thanks. But also [00:31:00] seriously, you didn't get a single thing out of this. And they were in the room sitting right next to the person whose life was changed and just so clear that I can't, and I could have that student who didn't like my voice or any of my lessons.
I could have jumped through so many hoop. And tried to get them to like me and bribed them and whatever, but they just, I just didn't speak to them and that is okay. And so every semester you just knew that not everyone was going to rate your class really well, and not everyone would recommend you to someone else.
And not everyone had the best semester ever. And that is okay. And that is the same thing in entrepreneurship. You've gotta learn that not everybody, you can't serve everybody. No. And you don't even have to try. You actually don't have to jump through hoops and try and be something that you're not and give discounts and, oh, and I'll give you this.
And you suddenly, you're going above and beyond and you're doing all this extra stuff that is like, not even because you're trying to make these people like you and appreciate you and change [00:32:00] your life, but you're just, you're just not for them and you're just not connecting and that's okay. And you don't wanna attract those people in the first place.
But if you do. You're gonna spend way too much time trying to please them. So just like, just let it, let it be
Christina Kokologiannakis: Serve your people. Yeah. And discounts. Oh my gosh. Discounts. It's like, uh, I, I keep telling people, if you wanna be a high ticket coach or course creator, or whatever, right. If you're selling high ticket, the biggest thing is stop doing discounts because people are trained.
We're like little kids. We are trained that if you are going to have. A discount, let's say coming up in December and you do a holiday special for 25, 30% off, I'm gonna wait till December. Right? Or if you say, oh, I have a Black Friday special. I'm gonna wait till Black Fri Black Friday, then you are seen as a discount.
So it's funny Macy's, I don't, I don't love Macy's. I never really shop at Macy's. I'm a, I'm a Nordstrom's person or somewhere else, right? I can't, I, first of all, I'll just side note, I can't [00:33:00] handle how many clothes Macy's has in their store. Maybe that's like a weird thing, but like, I
Camille Pardo: walk in, I never even walk in Macy's.
Christina Kokologiannakis: I'm the Old Navy girl right here. I love Old Navy. Old Navy is, is cool too. I love their jeans. But like I go into Macy's and there's racks everywhere and it's just, it's cluttered and crowded. Then they always have sales 25% off with an extra 60% off with an extra 40% off. And so for me, I don't, when I go in I'm like, oh, I'm not gonna shop the regular stuff, or I like something, I'll just keep coming back until I see it on sale.
And I found this really cute little like, jumper set that was really, 'cause I was speaking on stage in Miami and so it was like very Miami, very like, cool. And I was like, well, I'm not paying a hundred bucks for that. Like, no. And I came back and came back and then I bought it. And I think I got it for like 60 something dollars and then I so happened to walk through Macy's to get to another part of the mall and I noticed it was even more on clearance.
So I took my receipt 'cause it was in their time and I think I paid like 30 bucks for it.
Camille Pardo: They let
Christina Kokologiannakis: you do
Camille Pardo: [00:34:00] that? They let me do
Christina Kokologiannakis: that. So this is why Macy's hurting, this is why Macy's is struggling with their business. People don't understand that If you are seen as a discount store. You get people waiting for that.
Now, Nordstrom's, they have had more discounts just because the market has kind of turned. But typically in Nordstrom's, I just looked at, at a, at a sweater. I was like, this is super cute. And I was like, whew, it's 250 bucks for the sweater. I'm like, it's not that cute. But like people will go and they'll drop 250 bucks on the sweater because it's rare that sweater's ever gonna go on sale.
And you know it. So Nordstrom's making the money off it. And it's the same thing in your business, in your copy. If they see you as someone who's always giving discounts all the time, that's what you're known as. But if you're somebody who holds their value. And in your copy you don't, 'cause I think we, we talked about this when we were writing my copy and stuff, we were saying a lot about like, do you wanna say like there's a special, do you wanna say like, pay in full, or there's this, or there's that.
Like how you position everything. [00:35:00] You gotta be careful how you position it because if they think that you're going to give them discounts, like some people will get to a, a sales page. But they'll say, oh, if you check out if you, oh, you didn't want it like a down sale. Oh, if you didn't want it, we'll give you a set.
We'll give you a discount. Well, that gets around and people will tell me like, if you're gonna go buy this, wait till you just, just click on this link. It'll take you to the next page. You'll get it for half the price anyways. But do you wanna be that person?
Camille Pardo: I don't wanna be a discount copywriter. I, there's a reason why I don't have an Upwork profile and why I don't do stuff for pennies per word.
Yes, yes. I never, never wanted to be that girl. I would rather be writing for less clients. But really, really amazing clients and oh, that discount trap for me sometimes it's the friend who like you, you love them and they're really cool, but honestly, if they were your friend. They would wanna support your business.
And when you give people a half off discount, [00:36:00] it just just never goes good. And I'm sorry, because you're probably all just gonna have to learn this lesson for yourself. But sometimes, you know, it's like your friend's husband who's just starting a whatever, and then you help them out. And then all of a sudden they're texting you every single day at 10:00 PM asking for all these things that you didn't agree to do and for extra anyway, and then all of a sudden you're their social media manager.
Don't ask me how I know because.
Christina Kokologiannakis: Anyway, he fell into that one. See, and, and this brings us to, I know we're outside of copyright, but this brings us to the conversation of No Right. People who make millions know how to say no to everything and only yes to a few things. And it's really hard because it's like help people, you know, I wanna help people all the time.
And I let a lot of people into my course. There was one person I let in. Who was really struggling, but she was a friend of mine. She didn't pay, she got in, she didn't do the work. Then she'd be like, I need to have, and then they don't get the
Camille Pardo: results. They don't get the results. And then you tell everyone you're not cool.
Christina Kokologiannakis: But then she kept wanting to have calls with me because I have my, I [00:37:00] had my, my free consultation, so she'd be like, can we have another call? And just like chat. And I was like, look like this is a lot. And then finally she was like, can we have another call? I'm like, yeah. So my calls are $700. For an hour.
So if you wanna have a call, you're welcome to do that. And she was like, here's the booking
Camille Pardo: link. Yeah. And
Christina Kokologiannakis: then she was like, oh, okay. And then I was like, well, let me know if you wanna book. And she never booked, because the thing is she was getting all this free stuff from me, but she wasn't really the right person.
And so it comes back to girl letting the right people in, having the right copy. So let's go from talking to many into really selling. Ourselves in copy. Talk a little bit about that.
Camille Pardo: Okay. One of my favorite things to do in copy is to show off your expertise so that you're building that authority and showing off how cool you are.
Do you know the most effective way to do that? Social proof, my friends social proof. That [00:38:00] is the, the storytelling, the screenshots, the behind the scenes, the dms of how that cool brain trick where you can get someone to realize that. It worked for them so it can work for me too. And that person is just like me and it can work for me too.
And so if you in your business are not already a crazy screenshot saver, it's time to start. And Christina, I'm pretty sure I was begging you for screenshots.
Christina Kokologiannakis: Oh yeah. At one point. Yeah. Had a lot.
Camille Pardo: Because they make such a difference. And so I don't have to convince anyone that I'm awesome. The proof is right here.
Okay. And just let people realize there's that piece of like FOMO and that this is working for everyone else and I want it too. And oh my goodness, that lady is just. Just like me and it can work for me too. And so it gives people the courage to take that leap of faith and really believe in you. So if you are not saving social proof, all the [00:39:00] screenshots that show your credibility and your expertise, and when people ask you questions answer them and save the answers and save the screenshot shape, save the proof, and start building some stories so that you've got rave reviews, because I think that does it better.
Then then you trying to tell people how you change people's lives. Let us see it in action. That show don't tell. It's so powerful.
Christina Kokologiannakis: I love that. So let me ask you, because it's something I get asked a lot too. So is there, is there too much social proof?
Camille Pardo: Is there too much
Christina Kokologiannakis: social? So I was on, someone asked me this and I was on this page they sent me, and I'm not joking, I was scrolling and scrolling and it was screenshot, screenshot, screenshot.
There was probably like 200 of them and I was just like, uh, I don't know. Like I really wanna like work with this person.
Camille Pardo: So you wanna save. All the screenshots and you organize them so that they're targeted and they work for what you're trying to do. But [00:40:00] there is a point in all sales pages or an email, or even a social media post when you've gone, you are just too long that you're losing people.
Yeah, and don't ever get to that point. Okay. I have read incredible sales pages that I've purchased, and they're going on like 20, 30 pages and I'm hooked, and I'm into every word they're saying. And there are times, you know, when it's like a freebie and you're on page three and you're like, why am I still scrolling?
Where's the button? Like, yeah. You know what I mean? So yes, part of copy is being like concise. And being able to say it just now. So I think my advice to that person, if they have 200 pieces of social proof, no, just pick the seven best ones that show every single result from every angle. And I'm talking with my hands and no one's gonna see this.
Darn it. Okay. That's okay. But but pull in the very, very best and the very angle and save the other ones for the next thing that you post and the next thing that you share. But yeah, don't bog people down. I feel that way sometimes with photos. Like [00:41:00] on a sales page, I wanna see what you look like, but I don't necessarily need to see like every trip you've ever been on.
And those are things that like, I'm. I'm quickly gonna jump away from, so, yes. Yeah. Be strategic about the ones that you share, but save them all for sure.
Christina Kokologiannakis: Oh yeah, yeah. Save them for sure. And then the other one is, the other question that I hear a lot is screenshots or fancy pretty mockups where you take the, the quote review, whatever it is, and you make it look pretty with a little like name or something, but it's not a screenshot.
What do you prefer?
Camille Pardo: All of it.
Christina Kokologiannakis: Okay.
Camille Pardo: I wanna see you come in from every single angle, okay? There's six different types of social proof, and if you can use all six of them in a sales page, that's like the slam dunk that we want. So I wouldn't focus on just one type. So testimonials. Absolutely. The written testimonial where it's got the person's, you know, when you can see [00:42:00] their name and their credentials and how long they've been in business and like how successful they are, those are so powerful.
And being able to see the person's picture, especially if it's somebody really big in the industry. That is so cool and we love those like expert endorsements, screenshots, case studies. I think stats and data are a type of social proof that are way underused. And so, you had, you know, the sales page we did for you, you had some stats about realtors.
That were absolutely jaw dropping and we had to include them because they show, I mean, that type of social proof, that, look, this is what typically happens, but I did this. Yeah. And this is why, like, that's a piece of social proof that's really powerful. So don't skip don't skip. I want you have all the types, awards, any type of awards before and afters are also a really, really powerful.
Type of social proof. And because it's tangible and it's visible, and I know in some niches it's super easy to [00:43:00] do, like in real estate or in anything weight loss or anything with your body, right? Where we can see it before and after. But there's lots of ways in copywriting I can show. Your email, click rate, and open rate before you hired me, and then I can show after you hired me.
And those visuals side by side are so powerful. So think about how you can show that in your niche because of before and after. It is just like, it's just magic. So, so do all of the types. I was gonna say, so you use all, all six. Yes. Okay. If I am, if I'm seeing a whole sales page, I wanna see all six types.
I want, I really love some video, but I also love some written, but I also love a screenshot because if you think about it, they're showing different things. Like a video testimonial is so powerful, but a written one packs a punch. A screenshot is like a spontaneous in the moment, and I like seeing those too because they're not polished.
It's someone's like just off the cuff reaction and those are really, really [00:44:00] powerful. And so I wanna see all, and if you're doing like an email sequence, then don't cram 'em all into one email. Show me a little bit in each one, right? You know, this. So in one email, it's gonna be a case study and it's gonna be story style, and it's gonna tug at my heartstrings.
Okay? 'cause I'm gonna see the whole transformation from beginning to end. And then email number two can be the before and after. Okay. And then email number three, you're gonna talk about some expert endorsements or some awards you won. Okay. And then the next email, you can do some like, uh, stats and data and show where you fall.
Does that make sense? Yeah. So use them all in different places, you know, depending on if it's like an Instagram post or an email or whatever, but. Collect them all and use them all because they hit people differently. You know, there's different types of buyers
Christina Kokologiannakis: and I was gonna just ask you about that. Yes.
And maybe we can talk into that, because I feel like there's all the different kinds of social proofs, but there's also, I, I kind of wrote down like speaking to different types of people. [00:45:00] Right. 'Cause there's people who are analytical, there's people who aren't, are more like visual there. And then there's the psychology part.
Let's talk a little bit about all the cool stuff and what we wanna try to. Do in our copy, in our pages, in our emails. So you
Camille Pardo: wanna be able to reach all those different the quirks. Okay. I'll tell you, there's this little quirk about me. I never watch videos. If you put a video on your sales page, I'm not watching it.
Okay? I'm not. And if I'm watching a video on Instagram, the sound is off. You don't have captions. Okay. But I don't, I don't like to watch videos, but I, I love to read and I love a story, and I want you to take me on a whole flipping journey. I want it all, I wanna be cheering for them. I wanna know the backstory, like that really works for me.
And if you can put me in someone else's shoes and show me how they felt and how they feel now, and how their life changed, that really, really works on me. I just, I'm, I'm in. [00:46:00] Okay. But there are types of buyers who, they want you to get to the point. Yes. They don't want you to beat around the bush. And if some people, if someone else said it, that they respect, they're in.
And so that video is gonna work on someone else. Where me, I'm like, no. Take me on a journey. I want all the feelings. Right? Yes. And so in especially in email promo sequences, this is something I've been doing for quite a while with my clients and we alternate. The, in a promo sequence, we alternate the length of the email.
So we'll do one email that's really all the emotion, okay, all the feels, the story, the everything, and then the next email is straight to the point and punchy and in your face. And then the next email, we're gonna go back to a little bit longer. And we're alternating because we wanna catch all the people.
Some people don't have time to scroll through and don't, they're not gonna read and they don't wanna feel all the feelings, and they don't need that backstory. They just wanna make a [00:47:00] quick decision. And so as you kind of alternate, don't get stuck in one way of doing things so that you can reach all those, all those buyers.
Christina Kokologiannakis: What about on a sales page? Because on a sales page, I mean, I know we can do AB testing and try different ones, but when you're doing a sales page, are you incorporating a lot of different elements to attract each one? Because the funny thing is your person can be analytical and could be story blood, right?
But they're still your people. It's just they consume content. Yes. Differently. I used to love, to be honest, I used to love the really long sales pages and I would like to read them. I don't know if I just got busier, less attention span. I'm not sure what it's, or the sales pages got worse because of chat, GPT maybe.
But all I know is now I look at them and I'm just like, I'm not even, I'm like skimming them. I'm not even reading them and I'm just like. It's not attracting me in any way. And I'm like, you, like I like to watch video. I love YouTubes like, I like to watch video and stuff, but a lot of [00:48:00] times when I consume it, it's off because I'm around people or my kids around and I could put my, my earbuds in.
Yes. But I'm like, if I'm sitting in bed and I wanna watch something. Like, I don't wanna be putting my earbuds in all the time. Like, my daughter never takes hers out. And she's like, I swear I can hear you. And I'm like, they're in your ear 24 7. Are you sure? She's like, it's on transparency mode. I can hear you.
So I'm, I'm like, not that person, but like, how do we incorporate all that in a sales page to really kind of grab a lot of people without feeling like sectional, you know what I mean?
Camille Pardo: Well. You are gonna make sections, you are gonna make that baby flow, but you are gonna hit different points in different sections, okay?
And I want you to have a call to action button in each section. So if you, someone reads your headline and they know you and they love you, they can click and join right there. And if someone needs a little bit of emotion and they want a little bit of a journey I love the [00:49:00] section where a person tells their story, like their background, how they got there.
That is a really important piece to me, but other people just don't really care. And so they can skim that part and that's fine. So I want you to hit all of the right notes. The handle the objections, the frequently asked questions the pricing. And you know, those times where you just put the price bold in front of their face.
And then there are times when you just wanna go deeper and talk about why it's worth this, because this, this, and this, and show the value of the investment instead of just. Putting the number. So really you hit all of the points.
Christina Kokologiannakis: I love that. And I think it's the sales page. Yeah. And I think it's really important for people to understand that.
And again, chat, GPT might not know how to do that. Right. And if you just tell it, write me a sales page. You know, the funny thing is in chat you can say, do a Russell Brunson sales page, do a this kind of sales page, do that kind of sales page. Like there's so many different elements in it. At the end of the day, you need a sales page that feels [00:50:00] like.
Which is like what we keep talking about in today's podcast. It's like, does it align with you? Does it feel right? Is it your words? Do you convey who you are through the messaging? And I think that's really, really important and I think that's missed by a lot of people. So as we're kind of wrapping up this podcast, what's one more big thing that you really would want someone thinking about doing, having their copy written by you, or just really take away from this conversation?
What's the biggest thing?
Camille Pardo: Okay. I want you to put a piece of you in everything that you write for your business. I I want people to feel. Feel that energy like we talked about. But I want a piece of you in there and so that it feels like you, it's authentic. It grabs people, it attracts the right people and repels the wrong people.
But that's just don't get so cut up in being in a hurry and throwing things up there or using ai that there's not a piece [00:51:00] of you. And I think those little connection points, whether or not you. Love nineties hip hop and you quote it all the time, or you're a swifty or you're always drinking diet Coke or you are a mom to twins and just, you know, those like little things about you that people need.
It's okay. Not only is it okay, but it's good. Put it in your copy so that it feels like a conversation and it feels like. It feels like we're friends and it feels like we're close and it feels warm and don't be so professional and polished and filtered that you miss letting people just be like, oh, Christina is hilarious and, and I wanna be in her universe.
So that's it. Just be you and put it in
Christina Kokologiannakis: everything you write. I love it. I love it. Now you have a cool little giveaway for our listeners. Tell us about that.
Camille Pardo: Okay, so my favorite thing that I'm handing out right now is I have 77 amazing email subject lines [00:52:00] that are so unhinged and so out there that they will get your emails opened.
And if your emails are just, if your open rates, you click rates are struggling right now you've got to get noticed and you wanna be seen. So, you can grab, I mean, I'll. Give Christina all the links, but I would the link love to send you 77 really unhinged subject lines. Ones that just like snort, laugh funny, and make people so curious that they have to open your emails.
I would love to share that with all of you.
Christina Kokologiannakis: Yeah, I'm gonna put the link in the show note below so everybody grab your copy, grab a copy of it, and then. If you have ever thought about maybe sprucing up your sales page, your homepage, your emails, I mean, Camille can do like all of it. So it's, it's really, she starts with you on the messaging where you wanna go.
I know we had a lot of conversations when we were working together about like, what, what's the point? Like, what is it that you wanna do for them? Why are you doing it? And then changing that [00:53:00] into copy and words on a paper is huge. And so. I feel like hiring the right copywriter for you, having the right person for you is so important, and they can just make things sparkle.
So if you're interested or if you are just wondering if this is the ni, the right next step, how can they get ahold of you if they have questions?
Camille Pardo: Okay, so find me on Instagram. That's where I hang out at Camille Pardo copy. And I do have a couple of fun offers because I know some of you are good writers and you love to write for your business, but you're not quite sure if you're in that entertainment category or if you're in the persuasive copy category.
So I offer, offer a copy review. It's 187 bucks, and I go through your copy and I tell you what's working and what's not working and what's missing. And that way you can still, you know. Do that. DIY fun of writing your own words. I love that. But just make sure that you've got that sparkle, like Christina said that you're not missing some really, really [00:54:00] important elements that are gonna get your copy to convert, because it's not just about looking pretty or sounding nice.
We, we gotta get people clicking. We gotta be attracting the right customer and getting
Christina Kokologiannakis: them to buy. That's what we do. And it's so important and it's like that's your first like, okay, so we do Instagram as our breadcrumbs. Our YouTube is like the the long form content that gets them interested, but if they land on a page that is disconnected from everything else, we lost them.
So it's like the next one is that landing page, the sales copy. Does it speak to them? That's how you move them to the next step of either just buying. Or coming to a a la coming to a launch, coming to your free, becoming to whatever it is you have next, getting on your email
Camille Pardo: list. Yes. So it's like this constant nurture and where they can just fall in love with you and that you can build that trust so that they are ready, ready to buy.
Christina Kokologiannakis: Yes. I love it. Well, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast. I had so much fun talking to you about copy. 'cause I love messaging. I love words. So thank you again for [00:55:00] joining us and if you wanna catch more with her. Talking about copy, hop on over to YouTube. We're gonna have a little bit of a tactical conversation about how to really make your copy stand out and some other cool stuff.
So make sure to find us on YouTube as well. Thank you, Camille. It was so good having you on the podcast. Thank you.
