Video week 2.24.26 Andrea Klunder Final
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Andrea: [00:00:00] I've got a whole list of traps that people fall into when they start thinking about podcasting and getting excited about the opportunity and thinking like, oh, I listen to a lot of really cool podcasts. Maybe I should have a podcast. I like bringing it back to that impact because there are so many creative ways to approach the medium of podcasting.
I've been recently calling it flexible format that are not just the stereotype that we often think of like, I interview other successful entrepreneurs. So there are so many creative ways to leverage the platform of podcasting and the media of podcasting that I think can often get overlooked when people have a fixed idea in mind of, I will do this interview style podcast.
I will reach more people, I will get more clients, my business will grow. When that is the thinking from jump, a lot of times we end up in disappointment and [00:01:00] what we refer to in the business as pod fade.
Christina: Andrea, welcome to my podcast. You and I have talked and you talk a lot about being outside of the box when it comes to looking at podcasts. Let's just start right there and give our listeners a little bit more about what that means.
Andrea: Yes. So I'm gonna right away flip this around on you. I am going to answer your question, don't worry. In your business. So take podcasting out of it. 'cause obviously you have a podcast. We are listening to your podcast now. But in your business, in your work and the things that you do, do you consider yourself to be a purpose-driven entrepreneur?
Christina: Yeah,
Andrea: absolutely. Okay. And what is the one thing, in your heart of hearts, when you think about the work that you do, what is the one thing that you wish that everybody understood about the work that you do? Something that maybe could be life changing for people if they just knew this one thing or if they just connected with you.
What would that be?
Christina: It would be the [00:02:00] income jumping and building ecosystem that breathes is not that complicated and it changes your life, so you actually get to enjoy life while money's being made in the background.
Andrea: Okay. So when I am working with somebody who is either thinking of creating a podcast for the first time, or they maybe already have a podcast that's been trucking along you know, many months or years or episodes, that is the one thing that I want to focus on.
A lot of times we end up in disappointment and what we refer to in the business as pod fade.
Christina: Oh, okay.
Andrea: Have you heard this term before?
Christina: No, I haven't. I like that
Andrea: pod fade is, I can't take credit for it.
It's been around in the the ether for a long time. But pod fade is basically when you have so much excitement, so much momentum, you create your podcast, and then five, six episodes in, could be seven episodes in, could be 50 episodes in. You're just like, this is hard. It's time [00:03:00] consuming. It's expensive.
And you just stop. You don't necessarily have a plan for a classy, outgoing ending to your show. You just stop because it just becomes too much for the return that you're seeing on that investment of time and energy and resources. And so I like to get creative with people. Come back to what is that purpose that you have?
What is that impact that you wanna make? And how can we leverage the concept of podcasting to create what I call a more powerful podcast for you that's going to be more impactful, more sustainable as we branch into the nuts and bolts of production and putting it out there.
Christina: Okay, so is that like, well, as an example on YouTube, right?
Mm-hmm. There's talking head format. There is the, is it worth it format? There's the game show format. I'm assuming that's what you're talking about in the [00:04:00] sense of when you do your podcast, it doesn't have to be interview style podcast, it could be, conversational style. I'm assuming there's other ones.
Is that what you mean?
Andrea: Yes.
Christina: Okay.
Andrea: Even if you're gonna do an interview style format. Okay. So interview style is, across the board, it's the most popular format. Mm-hmm. It's the most common that you find, and a lot of people don't realize it's actually one of the harder formats to do well.
And part of that is because there are already so many shows out there, and so. When we look at the data across the podcasting landscape, we see that most regular podcast listeners mm-hmm. They have three to five shows that are their favorites.
Christina: Yeah.
Andrea: So if there are hundreds, thousands of interview-based podcasts out there and they're not all gonna be like yours, but maybe there are a lot that have similar topics that cover similar things. And so what is going to be special, unique, creative, exciting about [00:05:00] yours that is going to catch and also capture their attention so that you become one of those three to five favorites that they listen to week after week.
And that could be a format thing that could be. Just infusing your own unique voice into the way that you are having these conversations or the types of questions that you ask. It could be breaking rules and being controversial in your niche, in your space. Having a take on something that is not the normal advice.
It could be thinking about, am I going to do this as a limited series instead of like an ongoing show? Just because you wanna use podcasting doesn't mean that you have to deliver an episode every single week, every week of the year, forever and ever, which can, I know you talk a lot about burnout on your show.
That can be a great recipe for burnout, especially because of a lot of people that I [00:06:00] work with, nonprofit leaders, small business owners. We're not podcasting full-time.
Christina: Yeah.
Andrea: It is one thing that we do amongst many other. And so if you're on this hamster wheel of thinking that you have to fit that mold, that can lead directly to burnout.
And so I'm like, can we think about a season?
Christina: Okay,
Andrea: can we think about a theme for your season? And before we even think about a theme for your season, can we back it up and go back to that purpose that you have that one thing that you want people to know and ask the questions of what is it that I want them to do?
Christina: Yeah.
Andrea: What is the impact? Is it really that I want more clients? Fine. It can be tricky to actually use your podcast expressly for new client, prospecting or pipeline or conversion or, you know, all these businessy terms. It's a challenging route to go that way. And there may [00:07:00] be, like you said, faster, simpler routes to that, but understanding how you can leverage the conversations that you're having, the talks that you're giving, the episodes that you're putting together, how can you really leverage that in your larger media strategy and communication strategy so that you're creating a space to build deeper relationships with those people who may eventually.
Convert to clients if that's your goal, or In a lot of cases, I'm not working with people who are looking for client conversion from their podcast. In a lot of cases, I'm working with clients who are, for example, I have, one client who, her show is called Conversations with a Wounded Healer.
Her name's Sarah Bueno. And she, over the course of her podcast, she actually shifted her business model and the podcast was a big part of that because through the conversations that she was having with other people in her industry, she got very [00:08:00] clear on what was missing.
Christina: Yep.
Andrea: And this is a niche that I can fill.
Right. So she actually sold her, private therapy practice and moved into consulting for practice owners and leadership. Why she uses the podcast or the way she uses the podcast is great because it's about building her network. Mm-hmm. Building her community, staying on top of what are therapists, practitioners, business owners, what are they saying?
And that keeps her as a consultant fresh. It keeps her on top of what are the challenges. And so it's not so much about, like someone is gonna listen to the podcast and sign up to work with her, though. That would be great. They can certainly do that. Yeah. But it's about how do I grow as a professional and who am I connected with and what rooms am I speaking in and where am I getting opportunities and who can connect me with this person who needs this thing?
And so her podcast is really focused on relationship building, not [00:09:00] on achieving new clients. So the creativity piece, this is a very long-winded way of saying the creative piece might be about format. It might be about approach, and it might just be about understanding what your podcast is actually designed to do, and then knowing what are the pieces that we need to integrate or the decisions that we need to make that leads towards that outcome in the overall media and marketing and communication landscape that you're building.
Christina: Okay, so tell me if I'm doing it right now that we have all that information. It's funny, I'm editing a YouTube video that I just made yesterday for today, and I'm talking about this. It's like, why do I use YouTube? It's not to sell, it's not to fill things up. It really is my collaboration.
It's my partner where I can refine what I'm talking about. I can learn and get more clarity on my niche. I can really get that insight like you were just saying. And so I see that in the podcast too. Now, if the podcast was solo, it would be even more. But since it's [00:10:00] not, I bring on guests, but when I look at the guests, I look at it and I say, what can I learn from it?
And what can my listeners learn from it? Yeah. And I see it as a, I am an expert, but I also know the experts and I'm bringing people on to help share with you so you can grow faster. 'cause I'm growing faster doing it. So my whole look at doing the podcast is that I get to meet a lot of new people. I get to have conversations about things that I'm not necessarily an expert in.
Like, I have a podcast. Am I an expert in podcasting? Absolutely not. Like, no. Like we were talking earlier, I keep my tech very simple. I keep a lot of stuff very simple. It's easier for me, but I bring on really cool people. And even if they have a product, because I'm service based, are my clients, even if their product is like, okay, let's talk about your journey, like how did you get there?
What did you do? And we're always learning something. So. I don't know if I can niche mine down more, but that's kind of what I'm focused on with my podcast.
Andrea: Well, and you actually, 'cause I dug back through your back catalog when we started [00:11:00] talking online and looked at some of the topics and guests that you've had on.
And I noticed, correct me if I'm wrong, you actually made a pivot in your podcast. 'cause you started, originally your show did not have its current name. Was it called Effortless Closing? Was that the original name? It was,
Christina: yep.
Andrea: Okay. And that was directly tied to real estate?
Christina: Yes, it was.
Andrea: Okay. When did you pivot?
Christina: I pivoted about six months ago.
Andrea: Okay.
Christina: Which is crazy 'cause I've only been, I've been coaching and doing this for about six years.
Andrea: Okay.
Christina: But only two years online.
Andrea: Okay.
Christina: And so when I started online, I had a course for real estate agents. It was growing really fast and doing really well, but I was not loving it.
And I'm somebody because this is what I teach.
Andrea: Mm-hmm.
Christina: If you're not authentic and you're not loving it, don't do it. So I made that change. Okay. And so I changed everything.
Andrea: So business model, approach, strategy, what
Christina: I'm selling
Andrea: podcast, what
Christina: you're selling. Course. I shut it all down. Started all fresh. And that's why I changed it to the Christina Kokologiannakis show.
Yeah. Because it's really towards [00:12:00] women entrepreneurs who have a business, who have consistent sales, but wanna make those income jumps, wanna go that next level. But they're exhausted, they're tired, they don't want to do more. Mm-hmm. And the problem is that they feel like they have to do more to get to it, which is not how you do it.
I'm a multimillionaire. I have multiple businesses that are really successful. I've sold over a hundred million dollars in sales.
Andrea: Mm-hmm.
Christina: That is not the way to do it. Yeah. And so I'm teaching them the right way in a very simplified way of doing it so that you build an ecosystem and an empire that funds the lifestyle you wanna live.
Andrea: Okay. And did you, when you made the pivot with your podcast, did you already have all of your new services, all of your new sales copy, all of your new messaging? Did you already know all of that when you Correct. Yes. Ding, ding, ding. Okay, good.
Christina: I had figured it out. And the cool thing is doing YouTube, doing the podcast, I'm figuring out, I'm getting so much more clarity because each time I do something, I look at the downloads, yeah. But I look, it's like, did that [00:13:00] resonate? Do people like that? No. But that one was, okay, I'm gonna take an element of that one, make a new one, doing it a little differently, and then see how that lands.
So that's how I'm trying to do it. But it's gotten me so much clarity mm-hmm. Because I'm sitting here refining what I'm talking about mm-hmm. Every day.
Andrea: Yeah. A hundred percent.
And that brings me to another trap that people fall into. And I'm gonna come back to you specifically. Yeah. Don't think I'm gonna like, that's okay. By like, am I doing this right? Another trap that people fall into is measuring the success of their podcast by the number of downloads that they're getting.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Andrea: And I understand why that happens, is because, so for those who have not gotten into the world of podcasting, this term is confusing because it means something different in podcasting than anywhere else. So when somebody says downloads in conjunction with podcasting, that. Either means the file of your episode was downloaded onto somebody's device, but you don't know whether actually anyone ever listened to it, but the file transfer happened.
Christina: Yeah. [00:14:00]
Andrea: Or download also can mean somebody streamed this and listened to it, but it was never downloaded to
Christina: Yes.
Andrea: To my device. And also, one download does not necessarily mean one person. And there's all kinds of boring, techy reasons for why that is the case. Also, every tech platform measures downloads differently.
So Apple Podcasts will tell you one thing. Spotify will tell you one thing. They're only measuring on their platforms. Yeah. And only. In a certain way, your podcast host is gonna tell you another number. A third party company is gonna tell you a totally different number. And people will look at this number and hinge how they feel about the success of their podcast.
And whether this is working on that number. How big is the number? How big should it be? Is it growing? Is it growing fast enough? Do we even know if these are the same people listening episode after episode? Or are these like new people who are dipping in? There's so much that isn't, automatically visible or [00:15:00] automatically clear.
That hinging your success or failure of your podcast on downloads is an exercise in frustration. And so what I like to do is the approach that you're talking about, which is looking into the data and looking beyond just numbers to see what, what are the stories that I can get out of my data? But looking at, you know, if this YouTube video of my episode, or if this audio episode on Spotify got a ton more visibility, what might be contributing to that? Can I notice any trends, like when my episode is less than 45 minutes?
If I put it on a, on a graph, I can see that the ones that are longer are getting fewer listens and the ones that are shorter are getting more listens. That's not the case, that's not advice telling people to do under 45 minutes necessarily. But can you look at the trends in your own media and your own [00:16:00] results to see, is it certain keywords that are working well for you?
Is it certain topics that tend to be more popular or tend to be trending? Does it depend on who your guest is and if your guest name is in the episode, is it something to do with, maybe the way that you promoted that particular episode? Like what are the different factors that could be contributing to these trends and what can you learn about that for your business going forward in terms of how you're describing your services, what services people may need that.
That are filling a gap and you know that's a popular topic that people are looking for because you got so many more people clicking on and listening to that episode. Like, this is something that's resonating. Maybe I can look into that a little bit further. Another thing that I like about what you're doing, and this is something that your listeners, unless they've been on your show, unless they've been on a guest, they don't, they're not gonna necessarily know this, but when I booked this interview, [00:17:00] I get an email from Christina and it has a number of things in it that make it so easy for me.
Someone who is new to Christina, new to her brand, new to her show. It makes it so easy for me to connect in to your network. It mean meaning that there is, Hey, let's follow each other on social media. There's one. I would like to also like promote your things on social media. What are you, what are you up to?
What are you sharing? What's new? Okay, so we're creating reciprocity here, right? Also, if you're interested, here is my community. This is who my community's for. It might be for you, it might not be, it's not pushy. Christina's not over here. Like, I'm booking Andrea onto my show and I'm gonna get her into my community and she's gonna buy my services and all that stuff.
But it's an invitation of like, here are all the ways that we can stay connected beyond this podcast. And I love that because that's another thing that podcasting can [00:18:00] be really useful for is building, like you said, that professional network and knowing who are my key partners gonna be. Maybe my guest.
Is a potential client, maybe my listener is a potential client, maybe they're a potential referral source, maybe they're a potential collaborator. Maybe they know someone who is a perfect fit for what I'm offering and they're going to connect us to together. So that the way that you're leveraging, I have no idea what your downloads are.
I don't know what your audience size is.
Christina: Yeah.
Andrea: I don't know what your conversion rate is of listeners to, clients, but I know that those two strategies of looking at learning, developing, creating your messaging, seeing where the gaps are and where you might wanna follow up, and then also building that community, building that professional network, those are two really smart ways to be leveraging your show.
Christina: Awesome. I love that. I'm glad I'm doing it right. You know, I, I've been on a couple big podcasts and it was a hot mess and I'm sitting here going, they have a huge [00:19:00] team. They have all these people. Why was it so messy? I don't understand. So as I sit here and I do it myself I wanna make it so simple for me and for my guests. Yeah.
And so I'm glad to hear that it was easy and good. I try really hard to make it simple, but that's what this is about. And, and the funny thing is I look at my downloads. But I look at them as, what's the best way to kind of phrase it?
Loosely?
Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Christina: Last time I looked on Kajabi. 'cause Kajabi is where I host it and then it goes out. I think it was like 1500 downloads or something like that. Like it's not a crazy number. Yeah. But then when I go to Spotify, it's a different number.
Apple's a different number, and then it goes out as a video podcast on YouTube. So I get different views there. Yeah. The way I look at it is, are the numbers going up? Mm-hmm. That's it. I just wanna see a steady increase, not a number.
Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I, I think that's where strategy really comes into this, because one of the mistakes that I've seen a lot of people make is focusing on, okay, what do I wanna talk about?[00:20:00]
And even if they are thinking of like, what do I have to share? What can I educate? Even if they do already have that more of a service mindset, a lot of times what will happen is they'll focus so much on the nuts and bolts of the how to.
Christina: Yeah.
Andrea: With like, okay, well what's the best microphone? What's my setup?
Where am I distributing this? What are my social media posts look like? All that stuff before they actually have really thought through, what is the impact that I'm going to make because the clients that I work with are really focused on impact.
So knowing the strategy of what place in your ecosystem does the podcast fulfill, gives you a way to measure your success. And sometimes you have to be creative about how you do that. Is it that you are really doing a campaign to get people engaged with your podcast and you want that, two-way feedback.
You want people sending in stories, comments, [00:21:00] emails, voice memos, things like that. Is it that the relationship building metric, that's gonna show you that whether I have 1500 downloads, or whether I have 200 downloads, or whether I have 10,000 downloads, what matters more than that total number is how many of those are connecting back to me and what is the value of that connection?
There's other ways to look at this as well. One of the examples that I love to talk about is a string quartet based in the Bay Area. They're called the Delal Quartet. They are, incredible musicians, super passionate, top of their game, contemporary chamber music working with living composers.
And part of their ensembles mission is not just to play incredible music, and perform with top talent. They like to work on projects that also have a social impact message, meaning behind them, [00:22:00] increasing awareness about. Perhaps immigration or the environment or, people's relationship to nature or, social things that are happening.
So how can we use music as a bridge to have these bigger social conversations? And so you might be a fan, an audience member already. You already know the quartet. You already go to their concerts. You already follow them online and you love their music. But maybe. You didn't have a deep enough understanding of those stories behind the music, those stories behind, the work that they're doing, the new commissions that they're doing.
So I was introduced to them by someone we knew in common, and they wanted to build a bridge for their audience to their collaborators, to the community stakeholders, to, people that they collaborate with. The San Francisco poet Laureate is someone that they've done [00:23:00] collaborative performances with, and her work has influenced them and their work has influenced her.
And so they wanted to build that awareness of this larger ecosystem and meaning behind their music. And so going back to the creative, when we first started talking, they said, you know, we've wanted to do a podcast for a long time, but we thought. Well, what are we gonna do? Sit around the table and talk about cello techniques?
Like that's boring. We don't wanna do that. That's what you talk
Christina: about. Yeah. You
Andrea: know?
Christina: Yeah.
Andrea: And so how can we deliver that story? And we ended up on a four part narrative season to talk about one particular piece that they had commissioned from a contemporary composer that was talking about, Chinese immigration into the united.
States in the mid 1900's through a port, off the coast of San Francisco Bay called Angel Island. Mm-hmm. They had commissioned this oratorio piece. It had already premiered, but we were able to go back and sort of document that process, talk with the composer, talk with the poet who [00:24:00] was connected with this particular culture, talk with one of their stage directors, talk with community members who have this heritage and get sort of those oral histories.
And what was cool about that was there four episode one season? Podcast experiment. Did they get tens of thousands of people listening to that? No, but what they did do is catch the attention of some of the largest media stages in the country. Their podcast was actually accepted as a featured selection, official selection at the Tribeca Festival in New York, which is known for film.
But in the last couple of years, they've started also doing audio projects and podcasts, and we were able to present this story and the quartet on stage in New York through this podcast and that kind of credential visibility, through to new audiences that they would never have [00:25:00] necessarily reached on their own.
And. The depth of meaning for all the people that we had on the show who were able to share their stories, which a lot of their families, of their history, and have that documented in a way that was really sensitive and creative and well-crafted. We just, we received so much positive feedback about how good everyone felt about being part of creating that piece of media and art that, you know, unlike a string quartet live performance, which happens and then it's done.
Christina: Yeah.
Andrea: And only the people who were there got to experience it. This storytelling now lives online presumably forever. And can be accessed, time and time again by people across the world and into the future, which is one of the magic things that I love so much about podcasting. It's why even when things in the industry get frustrating Yes.
Even when there's like tech problems and nitty gritty. Client stuff to figure out [00:26:00] or, you know, changes in, in platforms or download measurement or all that kind of thing. It's what keeps bringing me back is the ability of this medium to really connect with people on a heart and soul level, beyond just the education and the information.
And that's the type of powerful podcast that I wanna help people to make, is a podcast that, yes, we can have these conversations about strategy, about how tos, about best practices, about tips. But in the end, your listeners are connecting back to you, Christina, because they trust you. There is a value that they get from the way you select your guests, the way you structure your interviews, the insights that you pull out for them.
Even if it's not, family history over lineage of complicated social impact topics, that's still impact and that's still something that is making a difference in that listener's life. Otherwise, they wouldn't keep coming back to you as one of their top three to five podcasts week after week.
Right? [00:27:00] Yeah. And so how can we design for that impact in mind from the beginning and then also how can we strategically measurement measure it so that when you look at those download numbers and they aren't what you had hoped, how do we know whether. It is actually still working and we just need to tweak a few things here or there.
Rather than just throwing in the towel and saying this is not for me. It's too hard. It's too expensive. It takes too much time. Yeah.
Christina: I love because you're talking about the backend story and in my, because I'm really phenomenal at business and so I help tech startups. I've done a few and it's a process with tech startups because you have founders who are kinda like, this is what I wanna do.
And then when you start looking at it, you're like, but I have to tell you not to do it. That's a hard conversation. Yeah. But what I have found is when you do something like what you're just talking about the backend story that nobody gets to see because you go, you listen to the music, it's beautiful.
I grew up in the Bay Area, right. So it's beautiful. You hear it, you're like, oh, [00:28:00] that was amazing. You leave, you go onto your life.
Andrea: Yeah.
Christina: When your, let's call 'em listeners who come to the, listen to the music, know the backend story. Of that music.
Andrea: Mm-hmm.
Christina: What it took to get there, why it was written, whatever it is that person's explaining about that story.
Andrea: Yeah.
Christina: That is 10,000 times more impactful than just a song.
Andrea: Yeah.
Christina: Because we feel it in our heart. You know? We feel it. We're like, we imagine the people when we hear a certain note and a rhythm, and you're like, oh, I can feel that person's heart and the struggle they went through. It's not just music anymore.
Andrea: Right.
Christina: And so I tell people, when you're building your business, when you're telling your story, when you're creating what it is, you can't just be like, I'm gonna teach you income jumps. It has to be like, I need to help you on the journey. Yeah, we're not gonna focus on the goals, but what was that journey like?
Tell us the struggles that you had to get here today, because they're gonna relate way more to that. Than just like, oh, here's what happened. I have all these downloads. It's [00:29:00] like, well, tell me the struggle. You had to get to the downloads. Mm-hmm. What did you have to learn? Like I told you mine. You saw mine?
Andrea: Yeah.
Christina: I wanted a podcast and I wanted to create something, but I wasn't loving what I was doing overall. So instead of just letting it run and keep doing it, I made the hard choice and I said, I'm going to pivot. I'm going to change it.
Andrea: Yeah.
Christina: The team that I was working with at the time was like, are you sure?
Really? People don't just pivot middle. And I was like, I don't care what people do, I really don't like, a lot of times I'd be like, I don't care what people do, like I'm gonna do my thing.
Andrea: Yeah. And
Christina: I just, I pivot and they're like, well, we should call it another season. I'm like, Nope. Just keep going with it.
Should we renumber it? I'm like, Nope, just keep going with it. Because they wanted to renumber it to 0 0 1. And I'm like, well, I've only done 53, so, or 54, whatever I'm at now. And it's like, so keep it going because I want people to know there's more to listen to. Not just one, but you gotta change, you gotta find you and then you gotta tell your story.
And I am still working to find how to express that myself, to be honest. And I know you're like, [00:30:00] you're really good at pulling out that story out of people. I struggle just because it's like, a lot of times when I think of my story, I'm like, oh, it's silly and dumb. Like no one cares about my story. And then I did a Instagram post where I talked about the first time I ever made over half a million dollars take home to myself, I owed $300,000 in taxes that I didn't know I owed Uhhuh.
Andrea: Oh my God.
Christina: Yep. And um, I didn't have the money and so that was like huge for me. So I had to go on a payment plan with the IRS and the state. I had to figure it out for two years after I made that money. I was paying. The taxes to it. Yeah. Well, guess what that did that taught me how to set up some corporations that taught me I need some really good tax attorneys that taught me a lot of stuff that I had to figure out, but then I don't think anybody's interested.
But when I made that post, it blew up.
Andrea: Yeah.
Christina: Because it's the story of the struggle.
Andrea: Yeah.
Christina: And then what I learned, so I still, myself have a lot of cool things back there, but I'm like, I don't know if people really [00:31:00] wanna hear it. And then everyone's like, no, share 'em. People want them, but it's hard to figure out what to share when you wanna tell your story.
Andrea: One thing when I said that interviews are the most popular format and the most common format, but they are kind of the hardest to execute. Well, that's what I'm talking about because this is one of the traps I see people falling into is the cookie cutter trap, right?
We've listened to so many interview-based podcasts of entrepreneurs talking to entrepreneurs that we kind of think like that's how a podcast goes. Like the first question you should ask. First of all, you welcome them. Oh, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me on the show. Okay. That's boring.
Cut that. Yeah, don't put that. Then the first question is, so tell us about what you do and how you got to where you are today. No, don't start with that question. You didn't start with that question. No. So I was so
Christina: grateful. I do sometimes. Sometimes. I know. Sometimes. Well, it's funny because I was just editing one and I was like, I keep asking 'em this, but I am so big about Let's get to the transformation first.
Yeah, let's get to like that nugget first, because if someone's listening in the first. 10 seconds because I have an intro where I kind of [00:32:00] intro you a little bit. Yeah. Then I'll tie it in. I have my intro in there, so it's kind of a minute before we get to it. Right. If they're not hearing something interesting, by probably minute three they're off.
They're off. I do that too, like I'll listen to someone and they're like, oh yeah, it was great. And like five minutes into it I'm like, oh my God. Like I can't listen to this anymore. Yeah. I'm gonna go to the next. So that's what I'm trying to do. But sometimes someone is so unique in what they do, or the conversation is so unique that I feel like if I don't ask them.
And we just ask like a jumping question. It might be so odd, but I like just jumping in personally. It's better for me. Yeah.
Andrea: It's not to say that I have never started with that question. Like certainly, especially if it's somebody like you said, that's really unique. Yeah. Or it's hard to describe or it's someone that I don't know well or because I do also edit my own episodes as well.
Sometimes I know I'm going to ask them that question, but I'm not actually gonna include it in the final episode because I'm gonna rephrase it for my intro to your point. When I record an intro later. I just wanted to get their language so that I could say it in a way that's maybe more concise and succinct in the [00:33:00] intro.
So in terms of the skill of interviewing and running an interview show, knowing what are those questions that I can ask?
If somebody is talking long, how can I carefully and skillfully redirect. If somebody has a story but they're not quite telling it, you know, they've got a backstory to something, they're not quite like, what are the skillful questions that I can ask that are gonna help pull that story out of them?
What are the follow-up questions? When I hear something interesting that I'm like, oh, that was interesting. Let me like, not gloss over that. Let me ask another question. Or even sometimes just say, say more about that. Something because you have that, intuition as you're interviewing, that you're actively listening.
You're not just looking at a list of questions that you've prepared in advance. You're actively listening. You're picking up on cues of where there might be more. I say sometimes we go on a tangent in our recordings, we go down a rabbit hole. I'm like, don't worry if you go down the rabbit hole because if it doesn't work for the episode, I'll pull it out after it'll be fine.
Christina: I had one and it was [00:34:00] like, it was like five minutes, but I was like, she didn't even get to the point. And I was just like, cut it. Because
Andrea: yeah,
Christina: you are listening and then you're like waiting for the point. And we missed the point. 'cause I don't know what happened and when we were recording, but I was like, oh, I was good.
Like we were going somewhere good and we got lost. So I just cut it out. But you
Andrea: could just cut it out. But on the flip side, sometimes you go down that rabbit hole and you don't know where it's going.
Christina: Yeah.
Andrea: And it ends up being the most brilliant part of the episode. Yeah. But you wouldn't have known unless you went there.
So, that's another thing that I love about podcasting is just the flexibility of it and the amount of control's, it doesn't have to be live. It's not straight to the radio. It doesn't have to be compact. You have room for depth and nuance. It doesn't have to be, you know, a 92nd, 62nd, 32nd social media clip.
So you can kind of follow your curiosity and explore and come to these new, realizations that you may not have come to otherwise.
Christina: What do you think about scripts? And she comes on. But see the thing is she is so scripted. She had a list of questions 'cause she literally was like.
Okay. Tell me about while she's looking at [00:35:00] a screen asking and it throws off your flow. Yeah. It's really hard. And then she wasn't listening to anything I was saying. Yeah. Just asking questions that were on a list.
They don't ask you real questions. They're not insightful. Yeah.
What does that mean for a podcast? Like how are you out of the box thinking for a podcast? Yeah. Right. Like, that kind of pulled me. I'm like, okay, that's interesting. And then the storytelling, 'cause I was like, that's a hard thing for me. Like, how do I add more storytelling into a podcast when sometimes I feel like I add the story in when someone makes a comment, but then I feel like I'm talking too much.
Mm-hmm. But then it's like, should I talk more or less? So I as the host. As the host, right? Yeah. So it was, you had really cool concepts. But I'm gonna listen, I wanna be engaged. I have three questions on my sheet just in case we stall. 'cause sometimes I'll have guests on, have guests and they're like, they, it's funny how they do this.
I'll have a question. They answer the question, but they loop themselves back into a hole. So when they answer the question, it stops. And I'm like, I don't know how to [00:36:00] ask you a question on that question. Like you didn't like wrong to ask you. It's,
Andrea: it's like a rehearsed answer that is. That is not a conversation, right?
It doesn't continue the conversation. I will never be accused of doing that because I will talk long. So you started off asking about scripts and then talking about this very formulaic thing. And in that case, she probably has producers that are picking guests and doing all the guest prep for her.
She probably has no idea who you were before you popped on. And that sucks, just honestly my opinion, I dislike that. So why are they doing a podcast? Or they're just not, their heart isn't in it, it's just another intellectual property piece. And those are the wrong reasons. That person that you were talking about, I don't know who it is, but they probably have a bigger audience certainly than I do.
But if you were to come on my show, which is something we will be talking about in the future. Mm-hmm. But if you were to come on my show, you're probably going to get a better experience and it's going to be more worthwhile and more meaningful [00:37:00] because I am only having you there because I'm interested in you.
I am engaged with you. I think that you're a perfect fit for my audience and I wanna be that bridge and introduce you and. If nothing else, the quality of our time together and our conversation together should leave you feeling like, that was a great conversation. I feel so inspired, or I learned something new about myself today.
In terms of having, producers prep questions for you, I mean, I have some clients that I work with, very collaboratively with where they actually go to the recording studio. This is like, the New Mexico Department of Cultural Affairs. Their show is called Encounter Culture.
They're a government agency. They actually, their host, she's a journalist in a magazine editor. She prepares all her questions. We work together to select guests for the season on behalf of the department. That's cool. And then she goes into the studio. I remote in because she's in New Mexico and I am not.
Yeah. She does her questions with the guests, but I'm also there as a producer in real time listening to the conversation. I'm like the second pair of ears mm-hmm. For the [00:38:00] audience. And I'm like, the audience isn't gonna know what that means. That was jargon. Let's follow up on that. Or, um, that thing that he said was really interesting.
And then we went on to the next topic. I wanna circle back to that thing. And so she can do that and she has me listening as a backup as well. And so we kind of have those two sets of ears, those two brains. And you know, I can give her a question and sometimes I'll give her a question that. She's like, I don't wanna ask that question.
Or can you give it to me in a different way? 'cause that sounds, you know, weird. Or I might have something that's a little bit more marketing sounding. And she's a journalist and she's like, Ooh, because she, yes. Let's gimme the marketing like that journalist.
Christina: Yes. Yes.
Andrea: And I'll be like, okay, okay, let's do it this way.
You know? But, so there are definitely ways that you can work with a producer that still are authentic and not coming from a place of like, okay, let's paint by numbers, do the thing, and create the piece of content that doesn't really move the needle.
Christina: Yeah. Because you're wasting all your time. There is so much time that goes into [00:39:00] creating these.
Mm-hmm. It's not just, oh, I'm gonna have a guest on, I know somebody come on. It's like, I put out information to people. I think I, I reach out to people directly. But I also have places that I post and I'm like, if you think you're a good guest, I have a form. Fill out the form that I review the form. If the form looks good, then I invite you to join.
Yeah. Like there's a lot of steps, a lot of things for me to do. It's not just like, come on.
Andrea: Yeah.
Christina: And so all that time that's spent, you wanna make it worthwhile. And I feel like that goes back to the conversation of we're trying to just get downloads. We're trying to just make money, we're trying to sell something.
If you're gonna go down that route, it's a long freaking journey because you need to use time to get there. Right. Like, look at Jenna Kutcher. I don't even know what number she's on now. I think she's like 400 or maybe even 700 now. Like could you imagine 700 episodes? Yeah, they do one a week. Hmm. That's a, that's a long time a, to be doing this.
And even if she has a team or other people have a team, like it's still the time you're sitting Yeah. To do [00:40:00] these. It's if it's, if you're not gonna really enjoy it, you're not authentic to yourself. That's part of the, we were talking about the overwhelm, right? Yeah. Like, it seems daunting because you hate it.
Mm-hmm. If you don't like who you're talking to, you don't like what you're doing, you're gonna first feel overwhelmed. And then the second feeling is hate.
Andrea: Yeah.
Christina: Like, I don't wanna show up, I don't wanna do it. Like, why am I here? Right.
Andrea: Yeah. So it's part of something that I started calling the Field of Dreams fallacy.
For anyone who is old enough to remember that movie, the Field of Dreams. Most people know the phrase from Field of Dreams, if you build it, they will come. They right. They come. Not
Christina: really.
Andrea: And, um, that's not true. I started podcasting, about a decade ago, and at that time it was a little bit true because podcasting was still new enough and still independent enough.
And Spotify had nothing to do with podcasting. And YouTube had nothing to do with podcasting. And, there was much more independent creator focused that. You could almost create your niche podcast and be one of only a few in that niche. And [00:41:00] through, I used to do a presentation for people about how to launch your podcast.
And in my presentation in marketing strategies, I actually had a slide that one of my marketing bullet points was The Magic of Apple Podcasts.
Christina: Okay, I
Andrea: like
Christina: that.
Andrea: This is not a thing anymore. Like, yes, you, there are ways that you can get promotion from Apple Podcasts, but it's hard, it's not magic, it's like strategy, right?
And so all of that to say that your point about it taking long is that this is not a strategy where you're gonna have a brilliant idea for a podcast, invest in all the startup stuff, start your podcast with a great idea, some awesome guests, and put it out there and you're gonna have an instant audience that's reacting to you.
It's, it doesn't. You see celebrities with big numbers. You also see people bragging on social media about like, oh my God, we just launched with three episodes and we already have 500,000 downloads. I'm like, but
Christina: they had people. They don't, you know, what people understand is they already had an audience.
I get people all the time who are like, Christina, I wanna be like this person. You know? They just came [00:42:00] outta nowhere. Yeah. And they launched this course, or they did this thing and they made all this money instantly. I'm like, no, they had an audience somewhere. Yeah. You don't just launch, or you don't just create a podcast or YouTube and then all of a sudden get it.
And there's, um, a creator I know on YouTube, and he talks about this and he said, there's this lady, but if you look at her YouTube, I think it was like 10 videos or 12 videos, and that's all she's made. And she has over a million subscribers. Well, you can't do that. Right. And then he goes, but here's a story No one sees, she has a million over a million subscribers on TikTok.
Mm-hmm. So she asked them what they want in a YouTube channel. Yeah. And looked at all the comments, screened it all through, and then created a YouTube channel just on what they wanted.
Andrea: Yeah.
Christina: That's how it works. People don't get that.
Andrea: Yeah. And so comparing, you know, comparing yourself to her results not gonna work.
Right?
Christina: Yeah.
Andrea: I think for most of us, it's a strategy that works well when you do it in a certain way that is aligned with what your goals and your outcomes and your [00:43:00] impact are. And you have to be committed. It's going to take time. So you need to do it in a way that's gonna be sustainable and you need to love it.
I had a client for a couple of years who his show was doing quite well and, it was building slowly over time and he was seeing good results from it. And one day he contacted me and he's like, this is really hard to say, but I'm gonna end my show. And I was like, oh no, why? And he's like, I don't like doing it.
Christina: Yeah.
Andrea: And I was like, wow. He's like, yeah, I'm not sure if I ever liked doing it. I was like, wow, it took you several years.
Christina: And that's the hard thing, right? It's like, it's like all that time. And so before I started this, I was like, am I gonna be committed? Can I do it for 700 episodes?
Andrea: Yeah.
Christina: Okay. Like, yeah, like I like having conversations. I will tell you, I bought, I put everybody in three days. So last month I did eight recordings in three days.
Andrea: That's a lot.
Christina: It was a lot. And I was like, no more than, okay, now my rules no more than six.
Andrea: Yeah.
Christina: Because it was too much. But like I do it all at one [00:44:00] time.
Yeah. And it's a little exhausting for a week, but then I'm Okay a whole month, right? Yeah. I kind of batch it so I enjoy it instead of trying to do it every day. I have a question for you that I think on this whole conversation
Andrea: Sure.
Christina: You find that there are a lot of big companies that are funding a lot of podcasts because there's money to be made. Or do you think that a lot of the good podcasts are still, I wanna say independently owned by the creator?
Andrea: Yeah. We're in an interesting landscape right now where the last couple of years there was a lot of money.
Mm-hmm. From the bigger networks. Spotify was throwing ridiculous amounts of money at shows. What we've seen happening industry-wide is a lot of those bigger, more visible shows are backed by a network. Even within that, some of the bigger. Independent networks, like, let's say Wondery is some one that some people may know of.
Wondery had a business model where they would take IP from [00:45:00] independent creators, bring them into their network, and then they would kind of develop something that could be then pitched as like a Netflix, movie or a TV series or a documentary or something like that. So they would take the podcast IP and then try to push it out into a bigger, wider broadcast format.
And, they were doing quite well with that while Amazon acquired them. And then this year. Amazon was like, Hmm, these podcasts are too expensive to produce. We're shutting down wondery and laying everybody off. Mm-hmm. Just as a simplification, so I know, from being friends with folks in the industry who are pitching independent projects to networks, I have a good friend, Tanya Mohammad, who was on my podcast, the Creative Imposter, talking about an audio documentary series that she's been producing about the, vibrant music scene in a certain area of Pakistan where her family and her father was a musician.
She's been taking all these meetings with different networks about getting [00:46:00] support to finish this project and distribute it. And it's partially done, like they're already in process. They're just, you know, looking for like, who's gonna give us those finishing funds and, and help us distribute and possibly do ad sales or something like that.
And she's meeting with all these people and they're like, we love your project. We love you. We love what you're doing. There's no money. I don't have a budget. I like all of our assets are like just frozen right now because of uncertainty in the economy. So there was this big boom of industry network money.
And now things are kind of going like, well, unless you're a celebrity
Christina: mm-hmm.
Andrea: We don't have a budget for something more indie. And that's not the world that I like. I have friends in that world and colleagues in that world, but who I'm really focused on is I'm focused on those indie creators who aren't necessarily trying to like, get sponsorship deals and ad sales, though that might be a strategy that we might use.
I do have a couple clients that have their own, sponsors who fund the entirety of their show. Cool. They're like their premier sponsors. But that's [00:47:00] just what allows them to continue to make the show in the way that they want to. And that's through a relationship that they built with that aligned company.
But we're really looking at like, how can an indie creator build a more powerful podcast to inspire their audiences to some form of impact that ultimately benefits your audience member, but then also benefits you.
Christina: Yes. And that's the way it should be. And as we're wrapping up the podcast, this is a great ending point because.
I want you to talk about how people, can find you and how you can help them.
Andrea: Absolutely. So my boutique agency is the Creative Imposter Studios, and I say boutique because we're working with those indie creators and we only work with a handful of creators at any given time. Because we really wanna go deep into not just the nuts and bolts of producing your podcast, but also the strategy.
So we have, some clients who we don't actually produce their show. We are just their strategic partners on a quarterly basis in terms of building out what is their approach, what is their content look like, what are some [00:48:00] experiments that we can run with their data to see if things shift in one direction or another.
Who are some shows that we might wanna partner with on a marketing strategy? Okay. A collaborative marketing strategy. And then there are shows that we do. Produce from top to bottom, like I said, sitting in on their, sessions and live producing them. And then there are shows that it's kind of a hybrid approach where we do some strategy consulting, and then they do all their gas booking and recording and all this stuff, and then they upload all their files to Dropbox and we take care of the rest from that so that they don't have to do the editing or publishing or anything like that.
I'm gonna offer, a 30 minute complimentary consulting call.
It is not a sales call. You're gonna answer a few questions when you book the time. I'm gonna look at everything that you have going on and we're gonna spend 30 minutes just ideating about your strategy based on what I see. And if you wanna know about my services after the fact, great. But otherwise it's just 30 minutes for me to get to know what you're working on, for you to get to know a [00:49:00] little bit about my process.
We both walk away with value.
So that's what I wanna offer to your listeners. Yeah. Is that 30 minute complimentary call, not a sales call. Yeah. Very clear. You're not gonna get sucked into some awkward situation. And it's four really three types of people.
Christina: Okay.
Andrea: So someone who does not have a podcast, but they've kind of been dreaming, I call 'em pod dreamers, they're kind of like thinking about like, it would be really cool if I had a podcast, or maybe that might work for me.
Yeah. And I can learn a little bit about what you have going on, what your goals are. And I can actually probably tell you like, Hmm, maybe this isn't your strategy right now and maybe you wanna set this aside on the back burner. Or maybe this is like. How you could really leverage podcasting right now, and here are some ways you could do that.
The second person is somebody who has a show like you and it's trucking along. It's doing what it's doing, and maybe there's a problem or a frustration that you're having, or maybe it's fine, but you're just kind of like, what else could I be doing? Is there something I'm missing here? And so that would be [00:50:00] somebody who is pod strong.
They've got their show, but they're just wondering what other strategic opportunities are there. And then the third person is my pod faders. These are those people that I talked about that they had a show at one point, they loved their show and then they had to end it for whatever reason, probably because they just ran out of time or they weren't sure if it was working or what direction it was going.
And it fell to the back burner. And they are like, man, I, I just, I really wanna make a comeback. I really wanna bring this back. Doesn't make sense. How would I go about doing that? So those are kind of the three different types of people that could benefit from, this session. I have a handful of spaces available and you can book those.
There's a short link, which I'm sure Christina will put in the show notes.
Christina: Mm-hmm. Yes, I will.
Andrea: And it is bit Lee slash ck pod with Andrea. So bit ly slash ck pod with Andrea. And that'll take you straight to the booking page if you're like, oh, not quite ready to have a conversation. That's a lot like, that feels [00:51:00] intense.
Totally fine. You can, you know, do the follow hangout, read the things, listen to the things, of course, by following the Creative Imposter Podcast on your favorite podcast app or on YouTube as well. We've been live streaming episodes as of late and then publishing them later as audio. And of course.
Connect with me on LinkedIn, follow me on Instagram at the Creative Imposter. And, you can kind of lurk for a while and then see if a conversation might be right for you.
Christina: I like that is they do. But that's how it works. You gotta like, test them out, try it out, and then it's like, oh, they are my people.
I always tell people, I'm like, maybe you're not my people, but you're gonna look at me. Maybe now you'll be like, oh, I'm gonna move on. But you'll always come back. You'll come back to me, don't
Andrea: worry. I tell people, I'm like, man, I've been listening to podcasts for so long. Yeah. And there are people who, I listened to their show for years before I ever reached out to them.
They had no idea that I was in their audience or who I was. And then, you know, three years later I'm like, I'm gonna book a coaching with this person because [00:52:00] right now is the time and we now have known each other for three years.
Christina: Yeah. It, it is just gonna be in, in the zone with them because
Andrea: Yeah,
Christina: you never know when it's gonna be.
And I love that you have the three different people and you're very clear on, who you're looking to serve. Yeah. Which is great. So I'm gonna put all of the links for everything in the show notes. If you're watching, it will be below the video on YouTube. That way you can connect with her and make sure that, you know, just check it out.
It just feels good to share with somebody your concerns and your hesitations to everything. And then that person can either say, like you said, I'll tell you if you're right or wrong. Yeah. Like, I'll let you know. And that just gives you that opportunity. So book a call if you're interested.
It doesn't hurt you get to learn if it's right or wrong. And then she has such cool ideas. You can definitely learn maybe a cool way of pitching it or if you already have one, how you can shift your story a little bit. And then, like I said, if she's not right, you got some good information. So
Andrea: Absolutely.
Christina: I appreciate you coming onto the podcast. The conversation was awesome.
Andrea: Awesome. Thank you, [00:53:00] Christina.
Christina: Thank you.
